Deep Tech Venture Building: Out The Back Ventures’ Blueprint for University Spinout Success

What if early-stage Deep Tech investing could be completely reimagined? Keong Chan, Managing Director of Out The Back Ventures, has spent five years building one of the most unique investment approaches in the industry - operating from Perth, Australia, whilst building relationships with leading universities and national laboratories across four continents.

Rather than waiting for deals to come to them, Out The Back Ventures proactively identifies breakthrough research and helps incorporate it into companies from the earliest stages. This conversation explores their syndicated investment model, the hidden innovation opportunities in nuclear technology, and why the future of computing will require fundamental shifts beyond silicon CMOS.

Keong reveals how naive questioning, startup-level energy, and genuine relationship building can unlock opportunities that traditional VCs miss, from Oak Ridge National Lab to Oxford University.

Essential listening for Deep Tech investors, university technology transfer officers, and anyone interested in how breakthrough research becomes world-changing companies.

Learn more about Lab to Market Leadership: https://www.deeptechleaders.com

Follow us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/deeptechleaders

Podcast Production: Beauxhaus

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to University Research and Commercial Opportunities
• 1:09 Welcome to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast
• 1:42 The Need for Early Stage Investors in Deep Tech
• 3:24 Introducing Keong Chan and Out the Back Ventures
• 4:48 Keong Chan's Journey and Motivation
• 8:42 The Role of Energy and Enthusiasm in Investment
• 12:56 Challenges and Opportunities in University Research Commercialization
• 22:46 Global Outlook and Collaborations
• 34:54 Exciting Developments in Deep Tech
• 35:41 Nuclear Technology: Challenges and Opportunities
• 38:42 The Future of Computing: Beyond Silicon and GPUs
• 44:37 OTB's Growth Strategy and Team Expansion
• 47:34 The Critical Importance of Talent in Startups
• 53:08 Building a Talent Pipeline for Venture Success
• 59:04 Flexible Work Arrangements in the Startup Ecosystem
• 1:01:10 Concluding Thoughts: OTB's Unique Approach to Early-Stage Investment

Transcript

Keong Chan: 0:00

Universities research is early, very, very early and mean. I mean that's, that's a very normal thing for people to think, right? But then when we get into it, so the universities will go, Hey, Keong, uh, OTB, please have a look at, uh, this project. We think there's commercial opportunity. There is commercial opportunity here. And in most cases, universities, as you know, Chris, a lot of them have their own funds now. So they're investing too. They would like to invest in these researchers too, you know, and that research group through that lens. It's not as early as what people think. And I think that is another very, very interesting point. Yes, the TRL might be low, but our belief is that, uh, TRL, the, the big inflection points that a lot of these projects is, as you would know, Chris is going from TRL three to maybe four to five, which most people might not be aware of what TRL is, but maybe most listeners do. But you know, you're talking about something that. Has worked in the lab and you just wanna see if it can be work. It can be replicated out. The lab in a very small scale, could be a prototype, but that if it can be done, is a really big deal because that sets the foundation for commercialization.

Chris Reichhelm: 1:09

Welcome to the Lab to Market Leadership podcast. Too many advanced science and engineering companies fail to deliver their innovations from the lab to the market. We are on a mission to change that. My name is Chris Reichhelm and I'm the founder and CEO of Deep Tech leaders. Each week we speak with some of the world's leading entrepreneurs, investors, corporates, and policy makers about what it takes to succeed on the lab to market journey. Join us. Does the deep tech industry need another early stage investor? I mean, there are a lot out there. And thinking about it, I, I guess my answer would be it depends. If it's another early stage investor that is going to move slowly and generally clog up the spinning out process, then no, I don't think we need another one of those. And I think most of you would agree, but if it's an early stage investor that's going to bring pace and network and advice that will genuinely help set a company on the right trajectory, then it's an emphatic yes. I have worked with a lot of very early stage investors in my time throughout the uk, throughout Europe, throughout North America, and nearly all of them are very intelligent, capable, very well-meaning. But I will say that none of them, uh, or I don't think I can think of a single one that has the level of energy, enthusiasm, and, and, and dare I say, pace that this week's guest has. I am delighted to be joined by Keong Chan, who is the managing director of a, an investment group called Out the Back Ventures, and, uh. If, uh, unless you've been living under a rock for the last year, then you've probably met Keong. If you are an active participant in this world, either as an another investor, um, as probably, or if you're a host to spin outs and startups within the deep tech world, uh, Keung and his colleague John Rock, are building this investment group to help spin out and incorporate and set on the right trajectory, outstanding innovation with the potential to become, uh, a world leading business. I had the pleasure of getting, I've had the pleasure of getting to know these guys over the last year, particularly Kung, we've had a lot of conversations and today we're gonna have a discussion on where we see this opportunity going. So, uh, a lot of questions I'm gonna have for kung that actually, and genuinely I haven't asked before. So, uh, this is gonna be great. You're gonna get a chance to meet him too if you don't already know him. So let's get into it. Keong Chan, thank you so much for joining me. I, I know, well, I don't think I've ever asked you this before, but how, how did you kind of start on this venture yourself, you know, where did you get involved? Where did you see the opportunity? And I guess kind of where did you come from that led you to, to say, I want to actually get involved in, in what's going on here?

Keong Chan: 5:11

Yeah, thanks Chris. No, we haven't actually spoken about this and you know, I, I often joke, uh, joke with John Rock, my, uh, my co-founder who you've met, that when, when I meet people at parties or in gatherings and they, people ask me what I do, I just kind of hope that they stop and I start asking. But they do. And then, and then it stop because it is, it is, you know, it is, it is a really interesting thing that's happening here. And, you know, I, I hope that, you know, really genuinely, I, I hope that, you know, what we're doing is, is creating a different pathway, you know, for spin outs and startups, you know, in, in ecosystem. So my experience actually from a work perspective, so, uh, obviously live in Australia, my, my work perspective has always been from, from investment. So I've been involved in public markets, so, you know, listed company environments for almost 20 years now, probably over 20 years. Come to think of it, it's a long time actually. It's gone fast, but quick, slow, um. Yeah, it, it just gave me the, an understanding of what investors I think are looking for. So, you know, as, as in most careers, you know, just trying to work it out'cause no, you know, uh, thoroughly unemployable, um, I, I started off in big four accounting firms and that didn't, that was, I'm surprised it lasted that long because, you know, I just, I just wanna do what I wanna do. You know, my, my wife who's been so supportive of me and, and I couldn't do this without her, um, in support of the family, but I, I, I just was thinking very deeply about, so because of all the people I met during, um, during the public, you know, public markets and, you know, you meet so many people and what's interesting is that you meet people and you know, like what we, what we've established you and I over the last, you know, uh, one to two years. You just meet people and you just get along. And when you meet people early on in your career, you dunno why you're friends. You, you, you might do something, but that's not the, it's not a transactional relationship. But as a consequence of that, we all growing up as peers. So now my friends, a lot of them are family offices, high net wealth, they are doing all these things and it turns out that they are, uh, you know, people that we're working what, who I'm working with. And, um, it's created a, a situation where, uh, I was on a lot of boards, uh, company boards, Chris, uh, you know, as chairman in a, in a couple of instances. And, and, but really, um, being the, the proxy or the lead point on, on the investments or the syndicate into these public companies. But then COVID happened and as like for all of us, it really made all of us recess very deeply about what we wanted to do. Quite honestly, it took, it probably took me the better part of 12 months of, of a lot of contemplation and a lot of thinking about what are the opportunities. And somehow, somewhere, I don't exactly remember the, with precision what happened, but it came to me that actually a lot of the deals that we've seen have come from universities at some point or touch somewhere. What is that? And that's the consequence of that. John and I had a conversation over a few months and, and we said, yep, we're going to cease our, our careers at the, you know, our, our careers at that point in time and really roll the dice on this entirely new undiscovered adventure. Um, but you know, it's hard to do that thing part-time, Chris, you know, it's like my wife says to us, uh, says to me, yeah, you guys are helping stars, but you are actually a startup. And I never really thought of it like that, but we are, we operate on startup pace, which is to your point, why maybe we're doing all these strange things, which I'm sure you, yeah, you would speak later. You guys

Chris Reichhelm: 8:40

definitely have that energy. I've met, I, I, I, I think most investors have very few investors that I know have that real entrepreneurial type energy. There are very few investors. Um, they do exist. They're definitely out there. And I think generally speaking, they're thought of by the wider community as some of the best investors, because just in energy terms, they seem to match the pace of the best companies, uh, or the best entrepreneurs. And I think that, uh, I think, you know, we spoke about this on a, on a recent episode with another investor, how the importance of pace and the, you still need a level head, you still need level heads in all of this. Uh, but that if you have an investor who is matching your pace. They, in terms of energy, are more likely to get what's at stake for you and perhaps you're more likely to, to forge a, a very strong relationship. I think by and large, in my experience too, few investors have that pace and most sit there almost a little comfortably, right? Thinking that, well, all the deals are gonna come to us and we will choose which deals we want to do. I'm sure this isn't true, but that, you know, I think for, you know, from the perspective of many people, uh, that are looking for funding, they see the investors as the ones with power. There is the ones that can call the shots. Of course it's not true 'cause investors have to please their LPs as well, and so they're constantly on the lookout for capital. So it's a long line of, uh, of, uh, of anxiety and waiting a big chain of it. But, but you, you know, you guys obviously have this kind of energy that I think is so needed. In this space and it's, and it's great to see. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure because of it, you are coming up with a lot of great opportunities.

Keong Chan: 10:46

Well, I think you've, you know, without, uh, going too far to, into that, I mean, we've obviously created a lot of, and developed a lot of great relationships with, um, venture capitalists and VCs and investors around the world. And, you know, it's important to recognize, you know, they definitely have their place and look how much value is being created, you know, through that ecosystem. It's undeniable and it's really important going forward. But I think you've, you've raised some interesting points and also a similar observation around the structural, if you, if you kind of dig a bit deeper into how they're structured and how they're compensated and incentivized, it does probably lead to some of that behavior. Or, or, and it's, none of it is malicious. Um, it's well intentioned, but when you've got that feeling that you have time, probably, you know, just engaging with, with, uh, universities and the researchers a little bit differently. The way we are structured is that we, as you know, Chris, you, you know, this, um, we, we haven't formed a fund and you know, we get asked to form a fund quite often and you know, you never say never. Of course, you know, maybe one day that makes sense, but we syndicate our deals and we are very fortunate to have a growing, um, group of investors who, uh, investing in our deal flow on a, on the basis of like, if we don't like it, we'll tell you. But if we don't say anything, then we're in, you know, which is also a really great way to get these things moving and to have the flexibility to be responsive. And, and by nature of that, if you think about from that perspective, how we operate until we get things done or we find something that's interesting, there's nothing really to invest in. So, you know, we, we are motivated and we've done that deliberately because our upside is obviously through our model. Yeah. Which I'm sure we can talk about further. Is the co-founding of these startups. We, we are interested in, in, in the equity upside. And we're also interested and aligned with the researcher and the university equity upside. So there's no, there's no, uh, there's no, I don't know, like kind of safe haven. We're, we're constantly thinking about what are we going to do? How does it work? Um, and, and, and what's the next thing, which I think is so important in these things.'cause you're right, otherwise yeah, things just tend to take, so to be

Chris Reichhelm: 12:56

clear to everyone, this is at the very earliest stage. This is when things are, uh, probably still, uh, uh, manifested in, in a form of research, but in many cases they haven't actually been incorporated yet. So you are helping to incorporate the research into a company and to then. Help point it in the right direction, give it that early capital. We'll talk about some of the other services in terms of talent and network and advice, and then setting it on the right trajectory. Yeah. So there is no other fund that's gonna come along, or Sorry, you know, you know, there's no other investment that's gonna happen before you guys, you're operating at the earliest stage. Yeah. Yes, that's true. Yeah, that's absolutely. And where have you, so you guys are based in Perth, uh, which is in Australia. I'm, everyone knows that, but me being American, let me just kind of highlight it as a novelty, um, where, you know, you, you, uh, but you're definitely not confined to the Australian market. You guys are going everywhere. So no, what's up with that? Why, why, why go everywhere?

Keong Chan: 14:21

Oh, geez. This is a, that's a great question. I, I haven't had the chance to speak about this with anyone, apart from my wife. Maybe when she questions the same, when she asks me the same question. Um, yeah. We're based in Perth, you know, it's Western Australia. I believe it's the most isolated city in the world. It, the nearest city is 2,100 kilometers away. I saw that on YouTube somewhere. Um, but Perth is a really dynamic, Chris, you know, it's a beautiful place and that's helpful, but because of its location and its proximity, you know, mining and, and resources is a big deal. Actually. The mining industry is all predicated on risk. It's, it's all about finding something. So whether that permeates culturally to us, I'm not really sure. But, um, that, that may be a reason. Uh, and it's very, you're right, very unique. Obviously the family considerations is an aspect of that. What, you know, to, going back to your, to the other part of your question around what motivates us to go and see everything and, and, and meet as many people as we can, which has taken to, to some incredible places, you know. Um, but I think that the endless curiosity of what is going on and what people are thinking and, you know, to, to spend enormous amounts of time with universities and their res and the researchers is, is a, is a, is an honor. It's a pleasure. It's um, it's something where, you know, even people when they, when they think about these things, oh, it's early. Well, is it really early? Is it, is that because someone look at the PowerPoint or they looked, you know, how, how did they come to their assessment that a lot of the things, and one of the things when I was thinking about, you know, in leading up to the podcast, Chris is. I think because of the benefit of not knowing too much and having a really open mind, you know, and not to say it's anything unique, but genuinely coming in with a like, why or what, why, how come It's like, that has been so helpful because it's been able, because of that negativity, I suppose, it's allowed us to have some really interesting conversations which addresses those, those, um, principles that have come of, for whatever reason set in stone. So, oh, uh, example, and you mentioned before, um, universities research is early, very, very early. I mean, I mean that's, that's a very normal thing for people to think, right? But then when we get into it, so the universities will go, Hey, Ong, uh, OTB, please have a look at, uh, this project. We think there's commercial opportunity. There is commercial opportunity here. And in most cases, universities, as you know, Chris, a lot of them have their own funds now, so they're investing too. They would like to invest in these researchers too, you know, and that research group. Through that lens. It's not as early as what people think. And I think that is another very, very interesting point. Yes, the TRL might be low, but our belief is that, uh, TRL, the, the big inflection points that a lot of these projects is, as you would know, Chris is going from TRL three to maybe four to five, which most people might not be aware of what TRO is, but maybe most listeners do. But you know, you're talking about something that has worked in the lab and you just wanna see if it can be work. It can be replicated out. The lab in a very small scale, could be a prototype, but that if it can be done, is a really big deal because that sets the foundation or commercialized. And we're not talking techno economics here. We're not saying that is potentially better than this. We are saying no, that stands alone and everything can form around that. And that's a very different value proposition. And when you talk to investors, especially early stage investors and down offices and high net world wealth. To be honest, I don't think a lot of them need more money, but I think they do like being involved in the edge of things and what is happening. And that is the dinner talk. That is the conversations they have with their friends and other fam, you know, other, other partners of people in their network. So again, I think Chris, I think one of the things that I would love to say, and I would encourage others, you know, who have the opportunity to be in this amazing ecosystem, it's just to really think deeply about the, the, the, um, assumptions, the terms that are used. Why, what is a founder, you know, what, what, who is that? Why is it, why does it have to be an academic that needs to leave to be considered the founder of a startup? Is that really the case? Where did that come from? Things like this that's been so helpful when we've come, when we, we've been talking to the universities and researchers that I love that,

Chris Reichhelm: 18:48

uh, that perspective and the insight around the importance of. That naive mindset, which doesn't encumber you and keeps you open and willing to ask the obvious, um, questions, which I think at that very early stage is still so important. Um, I think the, I, I think that experience that you've developed, obviously on the public company side, but you know, willing to bring some of that understanding of the way companies need to work ultimately to the, the trajectory that can be the launch point for a new company, I think is very helpful, I think is very helpful too. Um, I, I wonder how. Other investors that are doing the same kinds of activities as you guys.

Keong Chan: 19:59

Mm-hmm.

Chris Reichhelm: 20:00

I wonder how they see you because of some of this. Are you, do you think you are, uh, a partner? Are you a competitor? Um, what's your sense so far?

Keong Chan: 20:18

Um, well, look, I think, I think we are a partner. I genuinely mean that. Um, sure. You know, maybe some might consider us competitive, but the reality is that if you consider how many universities there are in the world and the research projects and researchers, there's, there's so many opportunities for, for others that are similar to, you know, um, we've been called venture builders. I think that's a appropriate term. Um, we are also co-investors, you know, so we have a hybrid model of the approach that we've developed. Really, Chris. And the other thing I wanna mention is. The tech transfer offices, they get a pretty hard time. And, um, we are very sympathetic with, with, with what they do. We, we are. So, um, um, we really admire what they do because it's really challenging within the university environment to find the, the, the, the IP to, to, to protect the ip, develop the relationships for a startup, for, and for investors to come in. I mean, and all the legal things that need to be sorted out along the way. So that has been an amazing, you know, relationship for us. And, um, if you think about, you know, what we can do, uh, within ecosystem, our relationships with commercialization slash technology transfer offices around the world, in all these universities that we're dealing with, and national labs and, you know, some of the places that, that we're working in, if we can help those people get more things out and we can bring that to the market and get other investors to invest with us at an early stage. We've curated a lot of that. You know, we spent a lot of time, uh, developing those, those channels and pathways. I can't help but think if we look at it from an investment point of view, I think it'd be, it'd be just more, more deal flow coming out earlier from, uh, the universities that are potentially more interesting and investible. Because one of the other issues as we know is that when it's, um, it's, no, no one's fault. Again, you know, and, and it's just the nature of things. Maybe first time ac founders, academics who would like to be founders. It's really challenging. And also sym, we're sympathetic to that. So maybe our involvement where we are involved can help shape it up so that it can become investible. You know? So I think we, I think, I think it's, it's, it's been great and, you know, the response that we've had from, from other v VCs and other people in the ecosystem, yeah. There's nothing but encouraging. So I, I think, I think I get that we're, we're just doing it a different way, Chris, rather than. I get that leaving it to chance to speak that someone comes along. I does, you know, the,

Chris Reichhelm: 22:46

the global outlook you've, you're taking, and just to be clear to everyone, I mean, you guys are almost forensically going through the leading university labs globally and the leading national laboratories globally, uh, as well. I don't know any other Yeah. Early stage investment group that is taking the approach. You are where you are being so meticulous at making sure you've, you know, and so you're going to the not so obvious spots, but that, you know, they're not so obvious spots that produce outstanding research, but also some of the really obvious spots that, from the sound of it, not many people have been to yet, or they haven't done much with yet. And I'm talking about, you know, for example, the big national labs in the US. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah. And talk a little bit about the, I don't know, maybe some of the feedback you've had from there. The experience and what taking this approach, this big global approach gives you, you think that may, you know, that if you were to localize it, it wouldn't give you as much.

Keong Chan: 24:01

Well, I mean that's, uh, you know, luckily John and I, from the inception of, you know, uh, we're nearly five years in now. Um, it's, it's incredible, you know, that we've been doing this for that long period of time.'cause it doesn't feel that long, which is the nature of a startup, I suppose. But, uh, we've always had a global outlook. Chris, you know, we, we knew from a very early stage that, you know, we could work with, um, some great universities in Perth. We could expand a bit more into Australia, uh, on the eastern seaboard, you know, Sydney, Melbourne, uh, Brisbane, which is, you know, a, a, you know, some amazing universities and our largest universities on that, on the eastern seaboard of Australia. We also knew that the world, especially in deep tech, it's it's all connected, isn't it? And we know that the markets are likely to be outside of Australia. So in terms of growth, in terms of what else is happening thematically in research, in deep tech around the world, we knew very early on that it wasn't enough. It wasn't sufficient to be only looking at Australian, um, uh, research projects in Australian universities. And, and, uh, very, uh, comforting was that the universities at very high level, at very high levels of the university that we deal with were, were totally responsive to that and acknowledge that as being a really key point of differentiation for us. Um, but coming back to your question around where we are, uh, maybe that'll be helpful. So yes, we are, we are obviously, um, quite active here in Australia, um, in the uk as you know, Chris, we've had a lot of, uh, discussions about this previously. Um, we are, you know, working at, at, at, um, university of Oxford. Uh, we deal with many of the universities, you know, through set squared, um, through through Midlands Mine for there with, with Lisa, you know, she's been amazing intro, you know, introducing us to, to the commercialization offices of various universities. Um, and yeah, we'll, we'll make a, a trip to Cambridge later. We'll talk to UCL. And, you know, some of them have been guests, you know, uh, part of the ecosystem some day on this podcast. Um, and also into northern grid stone there with Manchester, and, and the list goes on. So, you're right, uh, we, we, we are quite active there. Um, in the Netherlands, we have three universities, uh, that we deal with the technical universities and in a very interesting, um, setup there, um, in, uh, in terms of culture and the way that the government supports research. And yes, you're right. I mean, in terms. In terms of the depth and the opportunity scale of what we, what we are looking at. Um, and which is the reason why we're also bringing two people on in the US to help us, um, deal with, deal with the, the pipeline is the national labs and also the universities, you know, they're also amazing. Um, the national labs, Chris, you know, I think, uh, um, yes, you're right, they are obvious, but you know, you're dealing with the Department of Energy and, and us Patel, which is, um, UT Patel. Sorry, which is the, which is the organization that, that runs those labs. Um, you're talking about, you know, for us collectively, you know, I must give credit to John as well because this is, he's been obviously a huge part of what this is all about. Um, a huge amount of investment of time and financial resources into. Developing those relationships and at the national labs, it's quite intimidating actually. If you, if you, if you look at the directives, which is the basically the rule book of how you engage with contract research or you can license technologies. It's, I think it's a, it's a, it's a compendium. I don't know, it's probably many volumes. I, I haven't looked at it and it's really intimidating, you know, and I can understand, people go, what, what is this like, like, you know, how do we deal with this? But as with most things, when you learn to, when you, when you spend the time with people in, in the most genuine way with, with no ult, you know, with no ulterior motive, but to just be there to help the national labs and the people who are in those have normally been there for a very long time. They are true to the cause of science. And the researchers there are totally altruistic in the sense that they're not there for the promotion. In terms of the academics career, which is at universities, you know, well tried path. To go to get a tenure professorship. I mean, that's an amazing achievement. But at the labs, there's not, there's not that it is about this, and this is what they're putting their life's work to. And they're very, as you can imagine, the best of the best right in, in that particular field. So when you see that, uh, how do you deal with that and how do you spin it? How do you know where they are? How, how does this work? And it's, it's that part that we've been able to develop to a point now where, um, I think we've, we've been such a privilege to have incredible access to labs. Uh, you know, we are very, we close, we work very closely with Oakridge National Lab. Um, we are, you know, visiting Argon, uh, and Los amlo and, and Idaho National Lab later this year. Uh, they are a very small community of people, Chris, of people who are speaking to each other, saying. Can we work with these people? Are they, are they good people? You know, is this someone who, because they don't, they, they've only got so much time and, and, uh, and I think, I think about ammunition. You know, they cannot go to researchers saying, oh yes, this is another potential investor, and that potential investor disappoints or mis misrepresents or doesn't do what they say they can do. Not to say they will invest, but are they prepared to spend the time with them to really understand it? Or is it flippant? So they're very, very, uh, aware and to think, again, to my earlier point, universities slash national labs and, you know, uh, research institutions, they're uncommercial. But actually I would argue they're extremely discerning and they're thinking about this very carefully and they all will only let people into the inner circle when they feel like they've, they've spent the time to understand 'em. So when it comes to the vernacular determin that I used in national lab setting versus the university universities that different in the us, Netherlands, uk, Australia. Similar terms, but different ways that they think about things. And then when you start speaking to something they understand and they recognize, then you can get, get things moving because that in itself takes a bit of time to, to understand, you know, the, the wrinkles and the different, the slight variations in the ways that they just replaces opera. And when you, when you pull them all together, Chris, um, uh, and you know, we've spoken about Saudi Arabia as well as another, you know, in the Middle East is another really interesting point, which is another place we'll go to last year, but when you pull them together, you see threads. You see, you see thematics of where people are focusing their time and what the, what the sovereign capability. A lot of the sovereign capability, what governments are thinking about in terms of their research capability within their countries and what they actually want to, what they, what they want the, the, the research institutions to spend time on it is, it is actually obvious over time, but from the outside Yeah. There's a lot going on. That's, that's an amazing, so hopefully that helps. Oh, yeah. You know, be able to articulate

Chris Reichhelm: 31:04

some of that. I mean, what you've, I mean, that was a great explanation and what occurs to me is that, so this is all about building trust. And I think to be successful in business generally, this is the truism of truisms. It's, you've got to take the time, you've gotta invest the time to build trust. Some of these organizations, like these national labs, like researchers, particularly when this is their life's work. Very few things are gonna be more important for them than this. So they're going to be, as you say, very discerning about who they choose to let in to their world to help them. And it's less about them not necessarily wanting to, or not wanting to let go. It's more about, uh, you know, this really matters to us, so we really need to trust you. Yeah. And I think, you know, just doing the, it's the simple things though, right? It is taking the time to be with them and to listen and to ask questions. It's not, it's not some com, you know, it's not some complex web of dark secrets and activity. It's being a human being and doing what human beings. Yeah. Uh. You know, intelligent human beings excel at which is listening, being present, asking questions, taking the time, time is a big one. I think just taking the time, coming back and not, you know, recognizing it's not gonna happen in a meeting or two meetings, it's gonna happen over a period of time. But I think it sounds like, and it feels like from the discussions we've had, that you guys are, you guys seem to excel at that.

Keong Chan: 32:57

Yes. It's, you know, you're right, Chris, you know, and I've been thinking about this, you know, it's, it's an interesting observation. You know, for example, um, most of my communications now happen on my phone, you know? Um, so getting away from the email, emails are important, um, to summarize, but they're not a great way to create relationships. And, and you, you all, I mean, you are, you're a leading world expert, Chris. I mean, what am I, what am I here telling? Telling, you know, telling someone like you and what you do. You know, what's, what's the right way to do things? But I, I think getting those relationships to the phone, because then you can be responsive. And that's how I speak to my friends. You know, I'm not emailing them. So why would I think that to develop a relationship, it, it, it has to be done or should be done over email. So things like that. And we, we watch that John and I and our team, you know, there's quite a few of us now that we are, you know, that are joining, joining, joining us, which is amazing. We never thought that would happen so quickly. But, you know, getting, getting the right people culturally that are working with us and we are equally as guarded with the relationships and we make it really clear for people joining, Hey guys, like. You know, we spent, this is our friends, you know, like, you know, you, you know, we are, we are so guarded about this too, because we don't want to disappoint them and we don't want them, we, we, we can't do everything. But we want them to understand that when you deal with OTB, you're gonna get a really great person who is emotionally intelligent and, and a good listener. Yeah. And trying to help and do their thing. Right. So I think that's been so helpful, Chris. You know, and I, I, I think, um, um, that's been a huge shift, you know, for us in terms of being able to, to kind of create a different way to communicate. Because you're right, I mean, there mean a given day. I communicate with maybe three or four continents. I mean, I don't think about it like that.'cause it is normal now, but that is, that is what's happening, you know, four to five different places around the world. And that, that's fine because it, it can happen in a really organic way. And I think that's been

Chris Reichhelm: 34:53

really helpful. When you look at sources of activity, what's exciting you right now? Where are you seeing stuff that you think is just like, holy cow, that's what they're doing. And look, let's take as kind of table stakes. Everything in deep tech is kind of amazing. Alright. Really. Like if you love amazing stuff, amazing science and engineering innovation, pushing the boundaries. Deep tech is like heaven, but Mm. Where, you know, when, because you've got this global perspective as you're seeing all this stuff come up where, you know, for you, when you're looking at stuff going, yep. That's like another level.

Keong Chan: 35:33

Um, well yeah, I mean we, we, you come across, you know, similar research fields when you talk to universities and, and the labs. Um, where we see, you know, for us, where we're particularly interested in, which is our interest in the national labs, um, amongst, you know, Oak Ridge, Idaho, uh, Los amlo, those three in particular nuclear technology. And I know you've had, I've, you know, I'm a big fan of the podcast, Chris. You know, I think I'll be the first one or two that jump on. Thank you. You're the one. Thank you. I'm a supporter. Thank you. Yeah, exactly. Who else is there? Me. Um, but you know, it's, it's, it's um, it's, it's, it's nuclear technology. When you speak to the researchers and when you read the headlines, um, and whether it's fusion or fission, you know, uh, you hear gen four SML micro reacts, there's so much underneath the hood that needs to be worked on. So what, what what we understand is that, and it's so amazing that companies in the spotlight can, can raise the amount of capital they can raise and they can articulate the vision and the growth that is a skill, you know? And, but as a consequence of that, they're focused very, very focused on their particular area. And what you see when you speak to the researchers, 'cause, because the researchers go into those startups and they're all friends, right? So there's very small pockets of people who are good at these, you know, different things, but very small community. And they will say, look, Keon. That thing there, that's super important for that particular nuclear technology. You know, whichever, whichever aspect you're talking of. Fuel reactor types, you know, um, or you know, the, the blankets on fusion, uh, uh, fusion reactors, a lot of those things are really low. TRL really low, surprisingly low. And for now, outside you go, are you serious? Like, I thought I thought we're five years away or 10 years here from Fusion. And he said, yeah, that's, that is possible. But there's a lot of stuff that needs to be sorted out. So for us, what an opportunity to be able to go in there, develop those things while the big guys are getting it all sorted out, which is very important. We can be there as a very convenient point. Either they acquire the technologies or their license or something, but, but the point is, is that they, we can develop those in parallel while they're working on the big thing. We can work on a few things that will be really helpful at some point in time in the future, which is all about investing for the future. Yeah. So nuclear technologies, Chris is, you know, is an amazing thing and I don't need to tell you that. And I think you, you're very well aware of that and your listeners will be too. But it's, it's, I think the comment and the takeaway I would have from that, from speaking to so many people, surprisingly, so much innovation to come surprisingly, and, and it's so exciting. Best, most people will go, well, I don't know. We're good here. I mean, I dunno where else there is to go here. I think it's all been covered. Not really. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's a lot to do. I don't think anymore would

Chris Reichhelm: 38:22

say there's no more to do within energy. We still have a ton to do in energy and I think, from my view, but I think nuclear is such a critical part of the mix going forward. Mm-hmm. Um, it is, it's doubt, isn't it? It's a,

Keong Chan: 38:36

it's in the point of, part of the base load part. Yeah. The other, yeah, the other area. Chris, I, I would love to just, again, big picture stuff 'cause I'm not a technical person, I just kind of like learned through osmosis, um, and the privilege of listening to so many people. Geez, you know, the, the chip, you know, the motherboard, the chips that here is gonna change in the future. So at the moment, uh, g you know, GPU Silicon CMOs, that is it. I mean, and as anyone who would know in our area, in our world and people who might not know, geez, it's as an engineering feat for humanity. Like, wow. Yeah. It's inconceivable that it would be like this, actually, it's an remarkable achievement for humankind, but where it's going and what we understand is that you hear about quantum chips, there's an emerging field of neuromorphic, which is a really fancy we of saying, well, the materials can do a lot of that processing. You don't need to shove it all into the cloud and get the GPUs to, to be able to workhorse. And then there's optics and photonics, which is the other area, um, of interest. But basically what we understand is that. The gpu, CMOs and silicon at the moment, as we know it, is just using too much energy. It's, it's like a very forced way through this amazing engineering feat, um, you know, uh, with the transistors. But that is so challenging, isn't it? And, and I think there's an awareness now, geez, where does that en energy use the use of water? What is going on here that's forcing the research and the, and the development of quantum, because quantum in itself is just, you know, depending on the application, it's very specific, but in some areas, the quantum drug discovery, material discovery, it's gonna be amazing. And it does it. The point is that it does it at such low energy consumption because that's just in its nature. Neuromorphic is also using materials. For example, Chris, one of the areas that we understand is that, and one of the ones, the startups out the Netherlands that we're supporting, they're doing something with the car manufacturer, a big one, so that, you know, to many of those, but. What they're really interested in is using a neuromorphic chip to process speech so that 70% of the work can be done by the chip so that only 30% of it that needs to be done in the cloud. So that that talking to the car will be so much more human light.'cause you're not waiting Yeah. For it to come up and down. Yeah. You get the response just like you would as a person. They can't, that's pushing the edge of silicon and CMOs in the car, which is energy use, which is batteries, which is all of that. Right. So, so that's neuromorphic and I've talked to, um, a few people around the world on this. It's kind of barren. There's a few patches, but I can see in neuromorphic as being on both the hardware and software as something emerging. And we're really focused on neuromorphic.'cause I think Quantum and Scott. I had a bit of a head start and there's a lot of activity there. And then you've got further tonics and optics, which is something the video's looking at, which is basically using light to transfer data in a super efficient way. Really low power again. So you can see in the future, Chris, on a, on a chip, depending on the application. At the moment, we see silicone CMOs everywhere in our laptops and our, our, um, of devices. But in the future, I think you're gonna have different types of silicon, uh, CMOs, uh, neuromorphic for this application, quantum chip for this application with silicon. It's gonna imagine, which is such an exciting thing.'cause you really, it is increasing that load. Yeah. You know, from, from the, from the grid, from the processing power. That's another big area that we're seeing. No, look, look, that's, that. I

Chris Reichhelm: 42:08

think that's very exciting and that kind of resonates with us too. If I look at the work that's coming in or the work that we're getting contacted about more and more, uh, so much of it, I would say half of it these days is, is advanced compute, particularly with regards to innovations in the processor. Uh, the way we're processing, yeah. Uh, any transaction right now, um, largely because of ai, but not only because of ai, but it has to change because we're, we're hitting barriers. So we are gonna see different ma we are seeing different materials, we are hearing about, uh, uh, different types of chips, uh, and a complete rethinking of the way chips are designed. So you have companies, and I'll shout out VA computing at the moment, who are rethinking the whole nature of the processor. Mm-hmm. You've got groups like Intel and IBM who are going big on neuromorphic computing and coming up with different chips, and you're gonna have Nvidia there too. Um, and you know, and so, yep. And it's only natural that we have to rethink it given the current energy demand. This is unsustainable. It's just this isn't, this isn't, yeah. Or we've gotta rethink the, we, you know, the way we're doing AI and we've gotta rethink LLMs and. There's so much, you know, that hangs on this. So when you Yeah. I find for my 30 years in the industry, when you get to these critical junctures within an industry that forces a lot of innovation very quickly. Energy, I think we're getting to, I think we're getting to an interesting point. It's now mixing with politics. It's making it more complicated, uh, particularly in, in, uh, good point in the west in my country. So it's a, uh, but I think nevertheless, the economics of energy are, are still the economics of energy. And given the, you know, given the geo-economic turmoil in the world right now, I think the economics are probably gonna outweigh the, the, I think they're gonna have more of a, of a say as opposed to the politics. I think the geoeconomics hopefully will win because a lot of this, you know, and, and that's gonna make things better with nuclear and solar, wind and so on. Some of these more renewable sources that we need to cement into the mix. Uh, anyway, that's a whole other conversation. Yeah. For another time. Um, so, so where does, you know, what does the kind of, you know, the next one or two years look like for you guys in terms of priorities? What are you trying to put in place to kind of, you know, you know, further establish yourselves?

Keong Chan: 44:43

Well, um, you know, uh, I'm spending a lot of time in terms of our, uh, pipeline development for projects, you know, which is an obvious thing. And I would also say, Chris, I, I really wanted to add this bit on the end, you know, um, when you asked me about which research areas, but I mean, I take a lot of inspiration from, from, you know, um, the SpaceXs of the world. I know people just kind of, when they, when I speak about these things, they go, what are you talking about? You know? Um. We're really here, you know, to make humans more productive, um, uh, to, yeah, we're talking about inter planetary, um, travel. We're talking about, you know, the moon as a substation, and there's a bit of, um, you know, there's a bit of, like you mentioned geopolitical tension, and that is the competitive situation. Who would've known that SpaceX would be like this, you know, 10 years ago? I mean, someone did, obviously some people did. But I, I think I wanna, I wanna just make it really clear that, you know, yes, you get lost, you can get easily lost in terms of the niches in the, in the weeds of research. But what we're talking about is being able to, to create more energy, more things so that humanity can do more and not be restrained to the confines of Earth and what we're doing. So for us, you know, we find that incredibly inspirational. I do myself, but, um, so I always keep that in mind. It's something that I think about because it is, it is a lot going on. Um, but I would say, you know, coming back to your, to your point there. About the next one, two years, Chris, we are, um, growing our team and, um, you know, I, I, I think, you know, um, we, obviously you and I have had many discussions about doing things together and we will. Um, but I think the growth of the team and, and getting more people to be part of OTB, uh, is, is so important. And, you know, the way that we're, we are motivated and, uh, and, and the people that are coming on is, is, uh, is, is a really important point. So for us, you know, we could envisage, um, having, uh, people on the ground in the uk, the Netherlands, uh, suddenly in the US in Australia, growing our team existing here and also in Saudi Arabia. We've had quite a few conversations and we'll be closely looking to add people to the mix over the next six to 12 months, um, progressively as we, as we grow the team. Um, and you know, I think, uh, for example, one of the people, one of the resistance issues we left off the list was nasa, you know, so, um. That is a conversation that we're gonna be having at some point in time. We've already spoken to them earlier, um, in the year. But yeah, these type of things, we just wanna develop more and more of the relationships, um, so we can, we can do more and hopefully, uh, be able to, to also, um, because we are in so many places, being able to deliver really good outcomes for all the universities and overseas Yeah. As well as our investors, you know, um, it's something that, that we need to balance. So our, our business is a combination of capital, um, project management, you know, and also talent. And I, and I do in, in that flip side, gris is you, you know, you, you ask such informed questions. I do wanna speak about talent, and I think that talent is, is almost entirely underestimated, um, in a lot of ways. And, and, you know, everyone I think is a throw around, yes, talent's important, but I, I think it's probably the most determinative. Aspect of, of a startup. Right. And, and I, you know, in, in your experience as well, I think

Chris Reichhelm: 48:02

it, it like is totally, um, and I think it's, I think really ex, I think everyone knows it's really important, but it's, um, I think when people take the time to slow down and consider what makes the difference, it's always people that make the difference. It always is. If they take the time to figure out what went wrong, it's always people, almost always people, and the decisions that people make and the behaviors that people exhibit and the cultures that people create. And so the, I think one of the, I don't think it's underestimated. I think most people understand just how important it really is. But the fact of the matter is. People are so damn complicated. You know, we are not, yeah, we are not. Like everything else around, and I know this, I have, you know, most of my friends are investors of one type or another, or they work in finance, and I think in fact they, they do so because, uh, you know, they can deal with fixed assets or assets that are more easier to quantify. Humans are not easy to quantify at all. Humans are very difficult to quantify. You cannot pre, you know, just because someone was good before doesn't mean they're gonna be good again. And, uh, just because someone was, you know, perhaps didn't put in an ideal performance before, doesn't mean they're gonna be subpar again. Um, and so being able to predict performance, which you're. Which is generally your job. If you're making an investment in a company and you're recruiting a new leader or a chair or a CTO or CFO, whatever, whoever you're for that young company you are, you know? Mm-hmm. Your, your responsibility is to predict performance. It, it is, it is really, really difficult, and so I think that people know how difficult it is, but they almost throw their hands up sometimes because it's so difficult, if you see what I mean?

Keong Chan: 50:19

Yeah. Chris, I, I think, you know, uh, well, I, I think, I don't think I know, you know, of the interactions that you and I have and the many conversations we've had over the last, uh, year, um, 18 months. You've really given me a perspective, a different perspective on what talent means. And I, I really want, I really didn't understand why it was a, a technology first. Okay, this is the technology. Let's go find someone now that actually wants, that would be appropriate for that technology when we know that the people and the technology are equally, if, you know, as important as each other. So our view is that, uh, we would like to develop the talent in parallel with our discovery of the technology. So, um, because, you know, in the end, the biggest issue as you know, Chris in this, in, in your world is people good people are busy and they've got lots of things, lots of options. They can do whatever they want to do with their time, which is, you know, which is ama appropriate because they're really good. So how do you get them to care about something, you know, and how, how do you, do you try to sell them a technology? Do you try to sell them an incentive package? Is that, is that the way to do it or? In our view, it is probably the better, better approach is to get them in early, to be part of the team so that they can understand what it is like to be part of.'cause then they're not being, they're not being sold something or, you know, as a, a proposition. They are there as legitimately part of the team and helping us shape it up. And I, and I think that, um, whether we call them a CEO, we call them an advisor. We call them someone who's interested to help, that can help because in the end, I think in the startup, especially these early stages, it's about someone who's willing to take the time to connect other people. That can help the, the startup. And that is, that is something that you've, you know, whether you've, you expressly kind of put in my mind, but every time I talk to you, I come away with that realization. No, actually we do, we do need to start thinking about talent differently. And I think that's one, I hopefully come back to your question, Chris, maybe in the next one or two years. Yeah, we can, you and I can can work on that together to, to provide that something a little bit

Chris Reichhelm: 52:31

different. No, thank you Kung um, uh, you know, I, I take the view that you can't convince anyone to join a startup ever. You can convince someone to join your startup versus another startup. You can, but ultimately these are really smart people. Half of them are emotionally mature, the other half aren't. Um, but they're smart enough and they've got their, they've got their stuff sorted enough to be able to make those decisions. In my view, you can't convince someone to join a startup if they're not inclined to join a startup ever. So don't even bother with that. Mm-hmm. I think the, the thing that, the thing that I've learned, and I guess where I've gotten to in 2025 is that to have the best chance of that you need to have a pipeline. And the pipeline you need to have is of individuals that are generally up for impacting the trajectory of a company like this at the earliest stage. And so they're motivated to do that, and just as importantly, they're capable of doing that and. Um, you have to, and so you have to build that network over time. It is funny. Pe Well, it's funny, it's, it's interesting because so many groups I know so many investment groups I know, and we've talked about this before, are, are looking at just this, so yeah, all of the top uh, early stage investment groups are thinking about building a network if they, you know, if they haven't done so already of individuals that they believe can impact the trajectory at a very early stage and are motivated to do again and to take a big slug of it. And, uh, and, and I think that's right. I think that's entirely right. I think generally speaking that, you know, the build out of such a network needs to take into consideration the distinct TRLs associated with different opportunities. You need to be matching talent with. Their ability to impact these different tls.'cause each TRL throws up different types of challenges and opportunities. Uh, so I think there needs to be that consideration, but, uh, you know, you need to think about the profile of these individuals. I think there are some obvious profiles. People have done it before you, you might put in there, but equally, if they've been really successful and they've made money, their motivations will have changed. Okay. Uh, their motivations will have changed a lot. Yeah. So they don't have that big dog, you know, that big dog barking behind them, you know, forcing them to move on. They've made a lot of money. Most people in that situation, most people will say, well, I can go do some of the things I've always wanted to do. Or, you know, what bit of the company journey I really enjoyed, I enjoyed from kind of TRL eight on. So we have a commercial grade, first of a kind. We've got some early traction with customers and partners. Now I want to go and build that because that was the most fun and that is the most fun. The kind of, when you're sitting there scratching your head thinking, how the hell am I gonna get a TL five? I've got this early pilot that doesn't really work that well, and I've gotta convince an industrial partner to co-sponsor my, my pilot. How am I gonna do that? That stink, that sucks. No one wants to go back to that. So you, you've gotta, so it may not be the person that's just done it before. It may be someone new that you really gotta kind of think that through. Um, and, and then you need to be able to give these individuals deal flow. What we have found is they don't want to just consider one thing. They want to consider lots of things because the way they're gonna make their decision probably is by the, is by the people attached to it. So that could be the, you know, some of the early researchers that are attached to the pro uh, project, maybe some of the early investors that are sitting around the board early on, whatever. It's gonna be people that make that, that help to make that decision, uh, for them. So you, you need certain people in it already. You don't have any people in it that, you know, I think that becomes a challenge. And then it's more of an intellectual exercise. Well, I know about batteries, therefore I think I can help with this and so on. It's, uh, but a lot of it comes to people and may come to the proximity to their home. Yeah. And how easy it is and, you know, that kind of thing. And, um, but invariably I think it comes to the people. So, you know, and it's never like dating, it's never love it, you know, it's very rarely love at first sight. So you have to, you have to give them deal flow. And if you can give that, if you can first of all identify that kind of talent, help to qualify that segment that. Deal with that talent as the, as the customer. That talent is really the customer. You deal with them as the customer. Good point. And then present to them various deals over time. They will love you and work with you and want to continue working with you. And, uh, and then, you know, and then I think you've got, uh, I think you've got a good vehicle then to go and build out companies in a fairly successful fashion. It's really hard to build that, uh, it's really hard to build that. But I think that's, but I know a number, you know, this is an area of interest to a lot of investors. And so I think that, uh, and, and it's critical, I think, to get right. I think that's the biggest blockage, that's the biggest obstacle I think in, in venture building. Oh, and so if you get that right, I totally agree. Then you can really unlock a lot of efficiency. Yes. You don't have that, right. You're gonna be hanging around with all the other schmucks who are trying to do searches, you know, at the very early stage. And that, that's, that's really hard. That becomes really.

Keong Chan: 58:15

It, it, the, the chemistry of it. I know without laboring the point Chris, 'cause I know we are, we're on the same page and aligned here. But, you know, observing how people interact with each other, the chemistry of it, you know, for me, meeting someone and explaining the vision and the ideas that, that I have, you know, which hopefully is represented for the group and the potential of it. Really. That's when rubber hits the road, doesn't it? You can, you can do all the PowerPoints you want, you can do about all, you know, you can do all of that, which is important. But ultimately I think good people, you meet, you meet each other, you see, you see each other in the same light. You go, yeah, I can work with that person. We dunno what's gonna happen, but it's gonna be a whole heap of fun. And I think that, um, life's, life's about that. And I think an interesting trend that you've and previously probably brought to my, I think you did bring to my attention. The full-time thing five days a week. The, you know, is, is becoming a, a, a less and less important thing in people's lives. And I think full-time CEOs who I've, who I've observed and had relations with, who you think wouldn't have much time, they would like to cover with the timeout to do something else. And I think it's a really healthy thing for people to have variety and to have that capacity to think of about different things, you know, and I think increasingly employees are gonna have to recognize that too, which is a lot of the responses of what we have are people who wanna be working with us, who would like to work with us, is that they, this doesn't need to be their main gig if they don't want to. They can, they can interact with us, I think, in a role that, you

Chris Reichhelm: 59:42

know, perhaps an exec chair role, uh, you know, for a period of time where they can, let's say, shepherd an opportunity like that and raise the early capital for an opportunity like that and start to put together a little team of researchers or scientists or engineers, whatever's most appropriate. Absolutely. Uh, and if there are very high quality, then you're gonna get a lot for your money. I think at some point though, then you absolutely need that commitment of someone who's gonna lead it. And maybe at that point they're bought in and they say, Hey, to help it, I'm gonna commit fully to this. Or they just say, I've still got other commitments, so I will help you. Then you go out and identify the right individual. Exactly. So find someone else. But, but that kind of flexibility, particularly at the early stage, I think can be enormously helpful if you've got an individual mm-hmm. Of great quality with the right value set and good skills. I think that can make an enormous difference early on in the, in the life of a business like that. You've done the, you've done a remarkable thing, Keon, you've, you've started asking me questions, which I don't think anyone has ever done. So now I'm becoming the guest.

Keong Chan: 1:00:50

Well, Chris, you, you've actually, you know, yeah. It's, it's, you know, it's such a great thing to do for the community, this podcast, and putting it together. But yeah, I, I just, I'm just full of admiration for what you're doing as well and, and, you know, being so, so for the ecosystem. And I, I, I thank you for that. You know, it's been, it's really fantastic. That's nice. I'm looking forward to working with you, Chris. Thank

Chris Reichhelm: 1:01:12

you so much and the team, and thank you for, and thank you so much for sharing so much of what you guys are doing and how you're doing it. Um, I, I, I, as, as I said at the top of this show, I just don't know any other early stage investor who is, uh, who is putting up, you know, who is logging the air miles that you guys are logging, and more than that. Building the relationships that you guys are building, going to the obvious, you know, going to some really obvious places and, but, you know, but they're so obvious, like no one else is going to those places. So it's like, what the hell? It's like that. And, and, and you guys are doing that and you are breaking through. Yeah. And the, you know, the lessons that you shared, particularly around the, you've gotta spend the time getting to know these people, building the trust with these people, letting'em know you're on their side. If you're truly on their side, if your interests are truly aligned. Uh, I think, you know, that is, I think that is a lesson that more early, you know, more in the early stage community need to hear it is difficult. Being an early stage investor is so hard. It's, I mean, it is so hard, but I think what you, you guys are bringing a very fresh, high energy approach to it, and you're breaking through, and so I commend you for that. All right. Thanks very much, Chris Keon. Thank you so much. I've loved chatting with you. No doubt we're gonna chat again, but until then, thank you so much. Absolutely. You've been listening to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast, brought to you by Deep Tech Leaders. This podcast has been produced by bowhouse. You can find out more about us on LinkedIn, Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.